Where Creativity Meets Chemistry: Kelly DeFusco on Bakery Science & the CMB Journey

Most people think a career in baking means spending your life inside a kitchen—but today’s guest proves the industry is far bigger, more innovative, and more full of possibility than most bakers ever imagine.

In this episode, Kimberly sits down with Kelly DeFusco, a Principal Bakery Scientist at Tastepoint by IFF with 34 years in the flavor industry. Kelly’s journey started with homemade 3D birthday cakes, a family restaurant, and a home economics degree, before one unexpected phone call launched her into a career where creativity meets chemistry every single day.

Inside this conversation, you’ll discover:

• How a non-traditional path led Kelly into bakery science—and why more students should know options like this exist
 • The behind-the-scenes world of flavor creation, formula troubleshooting, and the science that drives consistent, scalable products
 • What Kelly learned training under Dunkin’s head donut baker and studying chocolaterie in Paris
 • Her real, unfiltered experience preparing for the Certified Master Baker (CMB) exam—and the surprising insights from only having one retest left
• Why she calls the CMB “the bar exam for bakers”
• How bakery owners can immediately improve product quality by tasting throughout the process and understanding ingredient synergy

Kelly brings honesty, humor, and a deep passion for both science and craft. If you’ve ever wondered what’s possible in the baking industry beyond the bench—or if you just need a reminder that growth is never linear—this episode is for you.

Listen in, take notes, and get ready to rethink what a baking career can look like.

To learn more about Tastepoint visit their main site here: https://www.tastepoint.com/

To learn about IFF visit: https://www.iff.com/food-beverage/

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Transcript

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Perfect Rise Conversations with the RBA. I am super excited to have Kelly DeFusco joining me today. Now, this is going to be a little different from our others because Kelly has a non-traditional background when it comes to baking. And I think this might surprise you. So Kelly, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much, Kimberly, for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Absolutely, I'm excited too. When Marissa said that I needed to talk to you, I was like, okay, we need to make this happen so we can see what's going going. I'm always looking for people to talk to who aren't necessarily in a kitchen, right? Because I want our student listeners to know that there's other things that they can be doing in the baking industry that might not necessarily be inside of a bakery. And I know after going to culinary school, It was a lot of stuff I did not know I could do with those same skills. And so I know that as we go through this interview today, our students will be very surprised on the things that they can be doing that are not inside of the kitchen. So with that being said, I do want to start a little bit with your background, like as a kid. So can you tell me about the moment baking shift from a childhood passion to something you knew would become your professional path? What clicked for you? Yeah. So thank you for that. So I will start with the earliest introduction to baking that led me into the moment where everything clicked. In my family, my mother, she baked all of the time. And she would bake, I have two siblings, and she would bake our birthday cakes. And I don't know if you remember this, but 3D birthday cakes were a thing. the pan where they would clip on the top and on the side and you pour the batter through the top and then you would unmold them. You could never unmold them hot because they would fall apart. So my mother would take one star tip and decorate the entire cake. One star tip, not a star tip, just a regular star tip. And I don't know how she changed the bags, but regardless, Kimberly Houston (02:21.748) So that moment was where it clicked. saw my mom bake holiday cookies. It was a whole thing. She would bake neighborhood kid cakes and it was great. That moment when I saw her, she taught my sister and I how to bake. My parents, food was in our blood. My parents owned a restaurant. I think they purchased it. was a breakfast, lunch and dinner and ice cream. So when I was about six or seven, my parents purchased the restaurant and for a decade they ran this restaurant. And I'm thinking as in my 60, my later teens, I'm going to take over this restaurant. I am going to be a restaurateur. My life is set. Well, unbeknownst to me, my parents sat my siblings and myself down and said, we sold the restaurant. Like, no, my future, it's gone. So. I had to pivot and rethink what my future was going to be like. And I'm like, I am going to go to cosmetology school. I'm going to be a hairdresser. My parents said, Kellyanne, you're not going to be a hairdresser. You're going to go to college and we're going to make you live at home with us. So lucky for me, I had a local college nearby where I was able to pursue a home economics degree. And that is where the love of food and consumer science started. That was it. Wow, that is so incredible. And it's so funny because it sounds so much like my story and my mother's college degree is in home economics, which is hilarious. Yes. Yes. Yes. You were just telling my kids that like two, three days ago and they were like, your degree is in what? Because that is totally not what she does. but that's where she started. So after graduation, I received a phone call from my high school home economics teacher. And her husband's friend's wife, Wow. Worked for a flavor company in Philadelphia and said they were looking for a home economist because the thinking was if you can read a recipe, you can read a formula. If you can use a spatula, you can use a pipette. And that single phone call changed the trajectory of my career. I started. Kimberly Houston (04:43.855) in the flavor industry 34 years ago. Wow. Okay, that is incredible. Okay, so sticking with that. So here's my next question for you. How has that early exposure shaped the way you approach bakery science today? So. Well, Bakery science, very, very scientific, right? In the bakery world, you have to have creativity. So it's kind of like meeting at the middle of the road. I need the fundamentals for the bakery science, know, the fats, the flour, the leavening, the protein, all of that to blend with creativity. I, you early, early on in my childhood and teenage and what have you, I was creative. Didn't really, I didn't know the bakery science. And I certainly didn't know about flavor companies in, you know, like the high school guidance counselors and even the counselors in, in undergrad. Never heard about a flavor company. Where creativity meets science is you know, kind of where I am today. I've been at TastePoint for about 20 years. And early in my career, I was able to make the food prototypes taste good and look good, right? Because everybody eats with their eyes. Now at TastePoint by IFF, we have a whole food ingredients portfolio. So it's like, I call it a baker's dream, right? All these tools in my toolbox. Kimberly Houston (06:32.551) I need to look at texture, cell structure, shelf stability, food protection, natural colors. I still make things look good and taste good, but there's all these other things that I have to think about where science comes into play. Yeah, it's great. It's a baker's dream. It sounds a lot like I just went to Bagel Fest. I saw that. Yeah, I have not heard so many people talk about formulas. I was like, this is a completely different version of baking than what you're used to from like the custom and cake side of it. Right, right, right. And I was like, okay, y'all are sciences. Like y'all are here doing science experiments to make a bagel. And I was like, okay, this is interesting. Like this is, I'm like, haven't done baker's percentages since. culinary school, but to be re-exposed to that at Bagel Fest, was like, people actually still do this in their day-to-day and you do this in your day-to-day too, but dealing with flavors and not actually making bagels. Right. Incredible. It's totally incredible. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about your background and things you've done, because we talked before this, so I know you've done a whole lot of things. So let's talk about... When you trained under the head baker at Dunkin and studied in Paris, so what techniques or lessons from those experiences still influence your work every day? So when I trained under the head donut master at Dunkin, it's all about large scale. It's scaling up, it's commercial ability. It has to be extremely reproducible, right? you know, if you're in a, I'm in a laboratory, if I'm in a laboratory and I'm doing a kilo batch, it's going to be, the yields are going to be way different than a 20 or a hundred kilo batch. So it's learning the large scale ups, the precision that's needed from, from that exposure. But then when I, Kimberly Houston (08:55.829) studied in Paris with a chocolatier, that's all about passion and creativity. And I think it's also like the European laid back way of life, which is a beautiful thing. You know, if you're making the scientific part of chocolatiering, obviously is the tempering. So as long you get that tempering fundamentals down, the creativity. is you can just layer and you can build on it. And the passion of the French choc, chocolatiers is magnificent. That being said, the passion that the head donut master have, you know, he's, he's feeding people around the world with these, with the donuts. So he has that same passion, but a little more scientifically driven. So, so bringing it back. So what I do today, You know, I still get to be creative with finding the trends in bakery and what's the next greatest, you know, at taste point, we always have the top 10 flavor trends of the year. That's we're getting ready to launch the 2026. I just got a heads up what they're going to be. So I'm so excited. So we see what what's trending. And so we we talk about what's trending, but you always have to keep in your back pocket the scientific end of it. You know, you need the texture. need to if I'm making white pan bread, I know commercially they're going to stack three loaves on top of each other. And I know that it's going when it's in delivery and transit, whether it's planes, trains or automobiles, you need to have the structure of that white pan bread in order to make the transit to then go on the shelves. So it's blending the taste. with the functionality. I've literally never thought about that. yeah. They really are stacking bread. They are stacking bread. And somebody had to think about that when they made the bread. I've thought about that. This is incredible. I'm like really obsessed with your job right now. Just. I love my job. I could tell stories. The opportunities that have presented myself in the two decades that I've been with IFF. Kimberly Houston (11:13.085) are absolutely endless. it's, taken my career to a place where I never thought it could go from a standpoint of, like I said, creativity with scientific, the scientific end and the function functionality, but also the passion and the joy that it brings every day. my cup always runneth over because the joy that I find in my job is there. You know, you never work a day in your life if you love your job. True. Right? Yes. So that's where I am. Yes. I love it. Okay. So let's talk about the different pathways that your job can take you. So the RBA is very well known for the CMB exam. Whenever I'm out somewhere at a convention or a conference, people always want to know when is the next CMB? How hard is it really? I get that question all the time, which is why I've had our CMBs on so they can tell you themselves, because I don't know, I haven't taken it. But you recently sat for the CMB exam and passed almost everything on the first try. What was the biggest insight you took away from this process and how are you preparing for your retest for the QuickBreads in January? Those QuickBreads. So the biggest insight that I took away from the process You know, I... It is very hard. for a right? It's a craft, a level, it's an accolade, an accreditation that is the highest you can get in baking. It has made me a better baker. It has taught me precision, perseverance. Kimberly Houston (13:05.971) demand of time and balance, creativity, was a challenge. was a very challenging weekend, but it has made me a stronger person. I look at formulations different. I look at creativity different. One of the biggest, there probably like two or three great takeaways from being a CMB candidate. Through the RBA, they encourage you to reach out to your judges. They let you know when you're ready to test who the judges are going to be. They give you the information. They invite you to communicate with the judges, to reach out, to share your pictures, to share your methodology. And so the judges create this mentorship that is priceless, that you will never get anywhere else. be the judges. The most influential judge, Chef Leanne Adams. She has been in my baking career with RBA or my association with RBA and the CMB, that one person. You always find that one person that you'll talk about when your career is over and when you talk about any affiliations with any associations or whatnot, she's it. Chef Leanne. was kind, gave critical feedback that you need to hear. know, I thinking that, I'm a good baker. Well, guess what? You need to hone in. You need to hone in and you need to become a better baker. So she gave, she didn't, they don't give you solutions. They give you feedback so you can create solutions. Kimberly Houston (15:03.802) throughout the whole process. So I think like maybe six months to five months before my exam, my exam was the weekend of 17, 18, 19th in October at the Culinary Institute of America. So we would go back and forth of the pictures and things that I'm doing and hey, what are you doing? What's the temperature? How long you doing it? So that mentorship was priceless, as I said. So the second part of that, getting to the exam, Friday night you have orientation. where you're told it's two undisclosed items, but you know that it's going to be, you know the areas it's going to be especially bread and creaming method. So there's maybe four possible things could be in under those two pillars. So we're told about, you know, we were told the undisclosed items then. from the orientation process Friday night through Sunday, you're all in from a physical, mental, emotional, technical, you have to be on it. And I didn't realize how much your adrenaline could surge as I did Saturday morning. You know, there's a mandatory 20 minute lunch break where they want you to stop and hydrate and nourish. So we get through the entire exam and when it's time to get your feedback, your grading, your scores, they sit you down and they talk through every prototype. And the feedback that you're giving is as valuable as the mentorship. So you have your judges that are giving you back feedback. you're these, yes, they're certified master bakers, but like they're the grandmasters. They've seen other candidates. They know what they're looking for. You have to take that professional criticism. you know, or structure or suggestions and embrace it. You take that information and it empowers you to be the, the Baker that they want you to be. They're helping you become the legacy of RBA with the CMB, you know, certification. the takeaway that I have, you know, when I was asked about how did you do, I'm like, well, I failed. I like to call it a partial pass. Kimberly Houston (17:28.957) You know, I only have to do my quick breads. The takeaway, you know, my post-bakes that I've done, whether it was my spritz cookies or my yeast-raised pastries, I hear them giving me feedback and I change it up. When I'm half-dipping my spritz, I'm making sure every cookie, I'm dipping the same end on every cookie. I'm lining them up. They're precise. They're perfect. So that feedback and that structure that they give you after the test, even though you're full of emotions, it's priceless. So it was a great experience. Yeah. And I love that we have the opportunity to hear from candidates, whether, and I like being able to have this conversation with you still in the middle of it. I'm in it. You know, like you're still there. So you're still honed in on it. feel like every other person I talk about the CMB, they've been a CMB for a minute. And so to hear this conversation in the midst of it, like I've got goosebumps and I'm like, wow, that sounds like just an incredible, the journey of it itself. It's incredible. And, go ahead. And Cain Cooperly, I'm still on this journey, right? I have... the privilege of retesting for, you know, still candidate, I have to retake my quick breads. So I have been practicing, I think I have four or five practice rounds in, and I have, I think it's a loosely scheduled like the week of January 20th to go back to the CIA to retest. I have a a personal schedule of like four or five more practice runs. Before it. Right. So, you know, I know that my bake has to be precise. know, you your batter has to be, you know, I'm a scientist at heart. I know how much batter has to be deposited into the pan. So I'm just really focusing on the precision. you know, being able to read Kimberly Houston (19:49.461) reproduce it and baking it until it's baked. Because apparently I didn't bake it long enough. I will tell you that was the first item that I baked. And when I spoke about your adrenaline is surging, I want to say that very given moment, when I stuck the thermometer probe into the pan, perhaps it went down a little too far and closer to the pan and not the center. So learning all of those things and you know, reflecting back. You know, right now it's a what a could a should a situation. If I had just baked it maybe another five minutes, my journey may have been over. However, it's a blessing. I love going up to the CIA. I love still engaging with Chef Leanne and Marissa. So it gives me, I'm looking at my silver lining as I get the opportunity to continue the journey. Yes. And you get to share the journey. Yes. think, I think that was another piece of this is that we actually get to talk about this in the middle of it. And like, what does that look like for people? And honestly, like if I were getting ready to take it, I would be listening to this podcast because this one makes me feel more motivated. Like even if it's not perfect, that's okay. Like that's what this conversation feels like as opposed to like, people are just like, that test is hard and I'm not going to take it. Well, you never know until you try, right? And I feel like, and particularly because you don't work in a bakery every day, you're in a lab. I'm in a lab, Super cool. Yeah, for sure. I, I'm talking to friends and family and colleagues and peers, you know, they know that it's hard. And I tried to put it into common language, mainstream language. It's the bar exam for bakers. Let's keep that in mind. It's the baker's bar. I'm like, right. So you'll see me in six months when I'm done my testing. Yes. Like guys, I have to lock you in focus right now. I did. And I locked in. I was probably for about five or six months baking, probably 15 to 18 hours a day where I bake for 15 hours a day. And then I'd come into my office. You know, I'm all about the theory. You have to know why X, Y, and Z. Kimberly Houston (22:09.072) the synergy amongst the ingredients, you scientists at heart, you need to know the theory with having creativity. Wow. I think that is so incredible. We could talk all day. I swear we could like, you're just, I feel like your brain has so much knowledge in it and I want to know everything. Okay. So we've talked about the C and B exam. I want to talk about fun stuff. So I want to talk a little bit more about you and so we've learned that you're a bakery scientist. We know you're a flavor expert. We know you've studied in pairs with chocolatiers and you're constantly troubleshooting. So can you tell me about a recent formulation challenge you've solved and the science behind how you approached it? Oh, yes. Well, you know, even us more experienced scientists always have challenges. And that's what I try to tell, you know, my team. Doesn't matter. We're always gonna have that, you know, we can tweak it moment. So my moment, I have created the most wonderful cookie and I put it into the oven. And I see my little friend just spreading so nicely on the pan. So it's taking, you know, it's pulling out the formula. when you don't want it to look like a twill or a Florentine, you want it to look like a drop cookie. So I had to reevaluate the fat, the hydration, the protein level of the flour. And to be honest, I looked at the granulation of the sugar, know, a granulated sugar, whether it's, know, a baker's fine, is that extra fine granulated, or if you have like your typical, type of sugar that you would get in the grocery store, the bag of sugar. The granulation is a little larger. If you look at the actual granules, granule, granulars, it's a lot large enough that it's different than the baker's extra fine. But then if you take a look at a 10X or even a 6X, that's almost micro fine. So I took a look at the granulation size. Kimberly Houston (24:16.076) You know, at that point I have bins of sugar and depending on the humidity that's in your laboratory bakery, you can have water pickup or more absorption pickup. That could be a factor, although it might be minute, it still could be a factor. So then I did a little scientific work and I changed the hydration a little bit. took a look at it, the European butter is gonna be 82 % fat or more, or American churned butter is gonna be sometimes a little less. So I just took a look at, I ended up changing from the granulated sugar to a powdered sugar. And then once I formed the cookie, when it was on the pan, I threw it in the freezer. taking it from a solid state into the oven, it really mitigated the spread. Now, it wasn't a one change formula. It may have been like a three change formula. But that's what I try to teach the team who are, they're fabulous. Here's cookie A, we're looking at a tweedle of fluritine. That's making into a drop cookie. And these are the things that you can change. Now you don't wanna change all these variables because then you don't know who was choosing violence in this formula. We were just mitigated to one change and then you make your. your different changes. So I love that. And I feel like people, people who are bakers, like a lot of people ask me all the time, like, why did my cookie crumble? And I'm like, well, I mean, there are several factors that could have gone into why your cookie crumbled or why your cake didn't rise or why things. And I'm like, you know, when I started asking questions, like, what's your altitude? Like, are you on the floor in an apartment building? Like, Everything is not this, are you in a high humidity area? Like these things come into factor and come into play. And then to hear that from the scientific side of it is like, okay, so what's the hydration you got going on? They'd be like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, but it's the same thing. Like altitude matters. Is it raining outside? That matters. Like all of these things to take into consideration when you're adjusting a recipe. I feel like my favorite part of recipe development Kimberly Houston (26:40.92) is why does it work and why doesn't it? And like that for me, it gets me going all the time. Love it so much. But I just never thought about that on a scientific level. If we control this in a lab, what is happening when you do this? And then I'm to think about that. So in my baker's coat, you know, I have my markers, my pen, my thermometer, but in my baker's pocket pants, I carry around my infrared and I'm shooting it all the time. Okay. What's the air temperature coming out of the vents? What's the, you know, you can, for your desired dough temp, we do anything, you know, your yeast leaven breads and my teammates find me. What are you shooting at now? It's important. I'm like, it's important. We need to know what the humidity is in this lab. Yes. And people are like, I had no idea. And if you're a non-baker and you're listening to this, welcome to our world. Welcome to our world. You know, you look at. Right. Why do you have a hygrometer on your desk? Because it's an important tool in my prover. These things are important and we have Right, for sure. I love it. Okay, so in the midst of all the things and on top of all the things you're doing, you also offer hands-on private baking sessions. What's one shift you see in students when they finally get a fundamental technique? What opens up for them? sure. So at TastePoint, we offered to our customers, one was a holiday baking class. And that was, we did like cookies with Kelly. And it was, was fabulous. I gave a formulas out and then we actually baked for about hour, hour and a half with customers and walked through the process. And I like to give tips and tricks of. how things go and how you can repurpose and, and you know, mainly, this is all the creativity part, right? How you finish a cookie. If you have a spritz cookie, how you can erode it, how you can dip it, I can finish it. But we also offered a chocolateeering class, spring truffles with Kelly. And that was the aha moment because you know, chocolateeering can be very scary, right? The whole tempering and whatnot. So I tried to do like chocolateeering 101. Kimberly Houston (29:02.119) for a mainstream audience and while making it more of the creativity doing the truffles and road pieces. So when I showed on the cooking class, chocolate class, some of the tips and techniques that you can do, it was, I didn't know that. The biggest, I guess, example that I have, I use Swiss mate chocolate for my chocolate tearing. and it's very expensive, especially now it's very, very expensive. And my takeaway to the customers of the audience was you never, ever throw out chocolate. I always have a sheet pan of Jaugees and I make nonpareils and I show them real quick, with a piping bag, put your chocolate in, always have your nonpareils, mise en place, right? You always wanna have these. And I will let you know that you never want to drop that pan because 20 years later and you may still be stepping on the nonpareils in your kitchen. I may or may not have done that. I have done that. I still find them everywhere 20 years later, but anyway. So something as simplistic as you never discard chocolate, you always have a chocolate sandwich cookie that you can enrobe or pretzel handy that you can enrobe. You know, just something so simplistic. If you have peanut butter, add a little bit of powdered sugar, a little bit of butter, and boom, you can throw that into a cup or a disc or something. If you have leftover chocolate and you have some roasted nuts or some candied craisins or, you know, cranberries or cherries or what have you. put it right into your chocolate and you have a very gourmet bark and I just saved you $30 a pound. So it was that moment where you can see it was a live audience and I can see the participants that the light bulb just went off. like this is this, this is why I love my job. It's something different. I know you and I talked about Dave, what's your day to day life, Kelly? Well, this is part of the great day by day. Kimberly Houston (31:09.056) you know, that I get to do. It's fun. So great. It feels like it. And it sounds like it maybe in another lifetime, I'll go into flavor. We'll see. We'll see. Do you know what the most common? We'll get to that. The common was common flavor. No, what is it? So the third most common flavor in the world in any food or beverage application. Could be savory, could be sweet, could be dairy, vanilla. If you're making a spaghetti sauce, if you're making a chili, put a little bit of vanilla in that. If you're making anything chocolate based, cocoa, whether it's Dutch or natural, put a little vanilla in it. Vanilla in a chocolate product is going to amplify the cocoa notes. It's going to boost the roasted toasted notes. it's going to balance bitterness. Vanilla, it's going to add to the aroma. any, if the vanilla added to anything is going to, if you're doing something protein, it's going to mitigate the bitterness. So vanilla at the right level, doesn't have to be a vanilla flavored prototype. If you add a little bit of vanilla, it may add, you know, a pop of dairy or a pop of creamy or a pop of savory or umami into it. Okay. We learned something new today. Yes. And I love it. I love it. Okay. So aside from us learning that, my last question for you is for bakery owners listening, what's one action they can take this week to strengthen their product quality, whether it's in flavor development, formulation or technique. Yes, we can use vanilla. there anything else up your sleeve that we can use? Yeah, for sure. So my biggest takeaway for our bakery owners a lot of bakery owners evaluate the end product for the flavor, right? Which is what you would think you would do from a scientific standpoint, working at the flavor company. We encourage evaluating every step of the way to get to that end product. You're going to taste your batter. You're going to take, you're going to taste a mid-bake point. You're going to take Kimberly Houston (33:34.217) taste the end product. You're also going to, you know, do a freeze-thaw stability. How does it taste after X amount of time in a freezer and then it thaws? Or do we do two freeze-thaw cycles? So flavor isn't just a one-shot deal. You can layer your flavor based on the synergy of the ingredients, the type of chemical or yeast leavening system. Whether you have a wheat, flour or you have a gluten free product. You know, we see at IFF, we have so many solutions. If you have reduced sugar, reduced salt, gluten free, whatever, we have so many tools in the toolbox to help you bridge the reduction of sugar. know, when, you know, I think, I don't think bakery owners realize when you take something out, you have to put something in. So it's kind of like a two-part answer, right? The flavor, the flavor part, investigate the entire process. And then if you're making anything free from, you need, if you're taking out, you need to put in, right? If you're taking out 25 % of your sugar, well, then you've lost profit. You need some type of bulking agent to put back in. If you're taking out sugar. So sugar does so much in addition to sweetness perception, need to keep the sweetness perception. lateral when you reduce the sugar. So there's, so it was a two part answer. Maybe you're looking for one part, but I think flavors probably is probably the biggest part. Taste every part of your journey when you're making a prototype. Okay. I'm going to do that this weekend. I'm like, you just gave me homework. I don't know if I've ever done that many tastes throughout the process. You do. Yeah, we walk around with a with basically like a spit cup because we're tasting, you know, why do you love your job? Because I get paid to taste, you know, we're trained from a sensory standpoint, you know, it's a good thing and a bad thing, right? To be a super taster because when you're going out to dinner and you get an iced tea and I'm like, this is regular iced tea. This is I taste. I'm like, I think it's a little passion fruit. My husband say there is not passion fruit in there. I'm like, is this what's this ice tea? Is it black tea? Kimberly Houston (35:58.214) no, it's a tropical, da, da, da. I'm like, I knew it. Yes. That sounds like the people who do wine. They're all tasting the notes of things in it. And now we can do that as bakers. Yes. Yes. Yes. my goodness, Kelly. This has been such an incredible conversation. my pleasure. I like, you don't even know. I have so many notes and now I have homework and I'm going to go make a recipe just so I can taste it all the way through. Yes. And play with. different types of sugars in my chocolate chip cookie. There you go. If I can, I hope we can circle back after the big retest. Yes, yes, we shall. So this episode will go live before you do your next retest. So we definitely will not keep our audience in suspense. I will be in your inbox where we can go back and say, all right, let's talk about what happened because I know you're going to pass. It's going to be great. It's going to be well, I sure I'm practicing. Good. I'm sure your family. Well, I don't know. They might be tired of eating bread, but so let me tell you. So, so it's the pumpkin loaves and pumpkin muffins. And you would think after making 10,412 loaves, you'd be tired of them. It is so delicious. What do you, I'm going to pack my husband's lunch. What do you want? I'll have a piece of that pumpkin loaf. Okay. As long as lucky for you, I'm still baking. Exactly. They still want to it. It works. It works. Kelly thank you so much for joining me today on TriKid. This has been incredible. And yes, we will absolutely circle back and talk about what happens after you become our next CMB Thank you, Kimberly. Have a great day. See you.