E16: From Fine Dining to Cookie Empire | The Perfect Rise Podcast

What happens when a fine dining pastry chef faces a career-ending injury? For Tracy Mattson, it became the spark that launched Cookie Take a Bite—a boutique cookie brand built on elevated flavors, thoughtful presentation, and a deep commitment to local partnerships.

In this episode of The Perfect Rise, host Kimberly Houston sits down with Tracy to unpack her inspiring journey:
• How six weeks on the couch turned into the foundation for a thriving bakery.
• The leap from farmers markets to brick-and-mortar success.
• The tough calls behind packaging, pricing, and staying true to your values.
• Why community and creativity are at the heart of her cookie empire.
• What pastry chefs need to know before making the leap into entrepreneurship.

If you’ve ever dreamed of turning your passion into a business—or wondered what it really takes to build a bakery that lasts—this conversation is packed with insight, honesty, and plenty of inspiration.

🎧 Listen now and learn how resilience, flavor, and vision can create the sweetest recipe for success.

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Chapters

• 2:29 Crafting a Unique Cookie Experience: Size, Flavor, and Packaging
• 5:39 Navigating Challenges: Supply Chain and Community Support
• 8:37 Creative Flavor Development: Testing and Validation
• 11:37 Customer Feedback: Balancing Passion and Profit
• 14:42 Spreading Joy: The Heart of the Cookie Business
• 21:55 Creating Joyful Experiences Through Cookies
• 23:16 Building Community and Resilience
• 24:47 From Farmers Market to Brick and Mortar
• 27:27 Lessons from the Kitchen: Kindness and Simplicity
• 30:55 Navigating Growth and Community Engagement
• 34:07 Finding Balance in Business Growth
• 39:11 Advice for Aspiring Pastry Chefs and Entrepreneurs

Transcript

Kimberly Houston (00:01.272)
from fine dining pastry chef to the founder of a beloved stop.

Kimberly Houston (00:09.742)
start. From fine dining pastry chef to the founder of a beloved boutique cookie brand, today's guest on The Perfect Rise proves that resilience, creativity, and community can be the perfect recipe for success. After a career ending injury forced her to rethink her path, Tracy Matson turned six weeks on the couch into the launch pad for Cookie Take a Bite. A business built on elevated flavors, thoughtful presentation,

and a deep commitment to local partnerships. In this episode, we dig into Tracy's journey from farmers markets to thriving brick and mortar bakery, the hard choices behind staying true to your values, and her advice for pastry chefs ready to leap into entrepreneurship. Let's jump in.

Kimberly Houston (00:01.556)
Hello and welcome back to The Perfect Rise. I am joined today by Tracey, Madsen Tracey. Thank you so much for coming to join me today on the podcast. How are you?

Tracy Mattson (00:13.154)
Thank you so much for having me. I already enjoyed our lifetime chat before this, so I'm super excited. So thank you.

Kimberly Houston (00:20.12)
Absolutely. I'm super excited for this conversation because for 10 years I ran a custom cookie boutique and I was like a cookie person. So I was super, super excited. Well, maybe, maybe it was a thing. Cookies were my life and I was like, no, I love this so, so much. So I think how I want to do this for us starting out is can you take us back to the moment

Tracy Mattson (00:31.999)
you didn't tell me that, so we're gonna have to dig into that.

Kimberly Houston (00:49.712)
when Cookie Take A Bite first sparked? What was missing in the market and how did you decide to create a boutique cookie brand?

Tracy Mattson (00:57.889)
Thank you. I started, was working in fine dining and I really loved being a pastry chef, but that business is really hard on your body and it's hard if you happen to have a little munchkin and you know, so I ended up getting hurt. Like, you know, like these TV shows make it look glamorous. Like, my God, no, especially in pastry. You like you burn yourself, you cut yourself, your feet stop. well, you maybe you start feeling a lot in your feet. So anyway,

I broke down and I had to get surgery on my foot. So while I was recuperating, I was trying to think about what I could do. I love my business. I love this industry. Pastry folks are cool and we help each other and we support each other. Or like the stepdaughter of the kitchen world. So we kind of hold our own and stay together. So I really liked it, but I didn't see.

Kimberly Houston (01:48.187)
Yes.

Tracy Mattson (01:53.675)
me being able to go back into working nights and weekends and you know our son was two at the time so it was really hard and I did kind of want to remember what he looked like so so sitting on the couch with my foot elevated for six weeks gives you lots of time to think so and I had some cool friends that were like you know like you you just need to do something like you can't you know you can't feel sorry for yourself you know like your careers over like no you you make a new one and I'm like okay that's great advice.

So I did, exactly what your question. I started looking like, what can I do? What's not out there? There seems to be something for everybody, but I really didn't see someone doing something with an elevated flavor for the masses, right? You don't need to go to a two-star Michelin restaurant to have something super amazing for dessert. Maybe I can do that. And started looking like, what category could I do? And originally, actually, I wanted the ice cream sundae truck.

Kimberly Houston (02:39.676)
Thank

Tracy Mattson (02:53.196)
a little truck and build your own sundae. So maybe that's somebody else can take that idea. I give it to you freely. So you make your own like ice cream sandwich. So you can pick your cookie, pick your ice cream and then like, oh, good to go and have a little truck. But there's the reality of regulation and cost and there's a whole nother regulation with dairy and there's the cost. So I was like, well, maybe we'll just do cookies. So that's kind of where it started. And it was a really good one to have a low cost to capital entry.

Kimberly Houston (03:07.26)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (03:22.316)
So I could rent a kitchen, I could do a farmer's market. And really, I think that model is a great incubator to start a food business. Because I wasn't loaded, I didn't want to rack up my credit card bills. I wanted to try to grow it organically, which also means you stay super small. So there's trade-offs there, right? But I think I was okay with that.

Kimberly Houston (03:22.716)
Thank

Kimberly Houston (03:37.242)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (03:49.004)
And that's a whole sidebar. talk about women in business and we tend to be cautious and not like, you know, throw caution to the wind, you know. So I was like fitting the model perfectly, but I'm okay with it. So yeah, started like, like whatever the speed below the tortoise is, that was me. So, and that's really what I did and just started out small and really it was kind of outside of my personality as like ask everyone any question, as I get feedback.

Kimberly Houston (03:56.785)
Yeah.

Kimberly Houston (04:05.02)
Thank

Tracy Mattson (04:16.204)
try to talk to everybody. You learn and you built that cookie empire by one question at time and just really being open to suggestions and open to what other people's experience and building your own from there. Not that you take it or you ignore it, but it just goes into that mosh pit of ideas.

Kimberly Houston (04:24.271)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Houston (04:38.364)
Nice. Okay, so this is just so everyone knows, full disclosure, very excited about this. So this is kind of like an interview for me 10 years ago.

Tracy Mattson (04:49.052)
gosh, okay, we're comparing notes, man. And maybe we can switch. You can be the cookie business, and I'll be the podcaster.

Kimberly Houston (04:55.88)
no, I think I'll stick with podcasting. I think I'll say, you know, we try, we try, but I've done my time in the kitchen. I've done it and it was fun. I loved it so, so much. And one of the things that students have asked me over the years or people that I've coached over the years have asked me things around packaging and like,

Tracy Mattson (04:57.003)
Damn! was a shot. Darn. I tried.

Tracy Mattson (05:08.031)
Yeah.

Kimberly Houston (05:22.588)
How do you make this stand out against other people? How do you make whatever it is you're offering in what feels like a saturated market, even though it's not? How do you make these things look a particular way, right? So my question for you is, what are the earliest business decisions you made around product size, flavor profile, and packaging? And how has that influenced your brand today?

Tracy Mattson (05:45.781)
for sure and packaging is the hardest part and I don't think I brought a box but anyway packaging was like probably like hand in hand of you know what we're gonna do and maybe one drove the other but the biggest thing was size like you know cookies were like the size of your head and for me I eat the whole thing and then I don't feel good I want pastry and dessert is supposed to like this end of a great symphony it's like it's the perfect ending note so you want it to be

Kimberly Houston (06:03.131)
in

Tracy Mattson (06:14.057)
you want to be satiated, you to feel like happy. And then when you're eating something that makes you like, why did I do that? That's really not what I wanted to go for. So I really looked at like an elevated, thoughtful approach to size. So our cookies are only like two, two and a half inch is in diameter. And I really like this idea of mix and match. So you could try a little bit. Again, we get.

as the owners we get to put our own personality and stamp on it. I don't like making choices. I want to try every single bite of one thing. So with cookies, I wanted you to have a little bit of everything. And really our model is not one flavor, one type of base and different variations. Everybody has their own personality, look and taste. really the whole mix and match is really important because they're not the same cookie. They're like,

Kimberly Houston (06:45.04)
Thank

Kimberly Houston (06:53.872)
Okay.

Tracy Mattson (07:04.382)
completely different flavors or texture or you know if it's a Chocolate cookie has a little malted and salt if it's a a spice cookies gonna have zest in it. So I really wanted to share all those Kind of elements, you know and really kind of really stay true to our theme of elevated kind of experience So the packaging I swear packaging is the hardest hardest and

Kimberly Houston (07:04.443)
Yeah.

Kimberly Houston (07:27.452)
you

Tracy Mattson (07:28.372)
Frankly, the most expensive and let's we won't even go into tariffs and supply chain issues because we've gotten hit with both. We're small, we're hyper local, we use local organic butter. We work with a farmer who gives us brings us our eggs, which are both more expensive, but that's part of our ethos. We want to differentiate ourselves and be a really good community partner. And that is by supporting your local food shed. Packaging, there's no one here that makes packaging. And we're finding that

Kimberly Houston (07:30.523)
me.

Tracy Mattson (07:57.289)
US manufacturers, which we'd rather do because we're a Slow Food Snail Award, it's really important to me. They haven't gotten where they can do small lots. It's not cost effective. So you look offshore for countries that have really perfected about being able to do small runs at a price point that we can afford. yeah. So that's always something that you're having to look at for cost and kind of like shift things and look stuff.

Kimberly Houston (08:17.766)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (08:26.548)
But yeah, packaging, I really wanted our packaging to be elegant, like our cookies, you know, stand out. So we have a little red gable box, and we have a program that, you you bring it back, you get an extra cookie. So people hold onto them, they become precious. When we're at events, I feel like there's a wee bit of guerrilla marketing, because you know, you see our red boxes all through the crowd, you're like, yes, I love that, I love that. You know, it makes me, it gives me joy, for sure.

Kimberly Houston (08:49.585)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Houston (08:56.188)
That was so loaded. Like there were so many jewels just from that one answer by you. You totally answered the question, but I love the idea of like even people now, particularly because of tears, right? That our bakery owners understand that like you may have difficulty finding the products that you were using before and you're not by yourself.

Tracy Mattson (09:01.139)
I just forgot the question, so that was OK. So good. I hope I got most of them in there.

Kimberly Houston (09:25.636)
And I feel like so many people feel like they're just in these silos of aloneness. And I'm like, no, everybody is having this problem. Like, this is great.

Tracy Mattson (09:26.078)
Yeah.

Tracy Mattson (09:34.109)
I just went into a colleague's chocolate shop and she's like, and you get to this point where you're like, God, whatever, we're just going to deal with, let's, let's prioritize our crisis and the chocolate shops. Let's talk about the price of chocolate. That's the other great thing that's happening right now. And we just got tariffs hit on top of our chocolate too. So not only you have a supply issue, you have a tariff issue. So you're like, great, let's think about it. We're going to have chocolate, but they had a different colored box on their counter because they're like, we can't get it. And you just lay like,

Kimberly Houston (09:50.492)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (10:01.69)
and I'm okay with it. It's pretty, it's cool. So you just gotta, you gotta roll with it and really triage like what's really, at the end of the day, what do you gotta focus your resources and your your stress level on because it could be everything for sure. But you're absolutely right, we're not alone. But you just, you you've gotta be flexible and like, okay, today we have a box with a sticker on it. Yay! So.

Kimberly Houston (10:29.508)
And it's okay. Yeah, it doesn't.

Tracy Mattson (10:31.738)
And our customers understand because we're part of a community, so they're like, they get it. And when they hear that, they're like, cool, I want to support you even more.

Kimberly Houston (10:40.848)
Yes, yes. And I think that is super helpful. We did an interview towards the beginning several months ago where a gentleman had been in business 50 years. And this was like right before the terrorists were about to hit. And I remember asking him like, what were his thoughts? And he said, I've been in business 50 years. It's not the first time we've had to go through something like this. He was like, you just have to figure out what's going to work to get you through until things turn around. And he was like,

Tracy Mattson (10:52.005)
my gosh.

Tracy Mattson (11:09.606)
Exactly.

Kimberly Houston (11:10.252)
After 50 years in the business, he was like, we don't even sweat this kind of stuff even more because he's like, this isn't the first administration where we've had an issue. So you just figure out, okay, what are the things that we can do right now in this moment that's not going to affect the quality of the product? And if we're thinking about the cookie versus the cookie packaging, the people are coming for the cookies and not.

Tracy Mattson (11:33.424)
Exactly. That's really great advice. And I think, you know, in our craft, you know, you have to be flexible. I mean, I started we opened I started with the farmers market and doing wholesale and we had our own. Then we had our own production kitchen. Everyone's like, you should do a retail counter. I'm like, no, I can't do that yet. I want to have retail. And we're not in a super high traffic area.

I want to do retail when I have name recognition and that business will carry itself. You you go buy some of these stores and like there's no one in there. And I'm thinking, Matt, like you're paying those two people there and there are no one there. That's really heartbreaking. And that could really break you, literally break you financially and your business. So, yes, but you we hit the COVID supply and now this and you're like, you you just, you're like, all right, what's today? You know, and you have to roll with it for sure.

Kimberly Houston (12:06.374)
Yes.

Tracy Mattson (12:29.68)
One of the best devices, because again, going back to like really talk to people, ask people, you know, get their experience is it was another business owner and he's like, you need to be good with doing less of what you love in regard to like baking and the product and you better be able to run a business because if you can't do that, you can't, you won't be a business because if you don't know your numbers, if you don't know how to, and I'm stuck with that just so this full disclosure.

Kimberly Houston (12:47.973)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (12:58.139)
but I know I need to do it, you know, like, and then hire someone that can help you with that. But if you can't run your business, then you don't have a business. So you really got to be practical about having a handle on that or at least getting help on it. So you know that you're not just, you know, you've got an open faucet and then just running yourself into the ground.

Kimberly Houston (13:20.026)
Yes, because then it's, is it passion or is it profit? Which one are you here for? And you can be here for both, but the profit is always gonna outweigh the passion, particularly when we're facing these types of like bottlenecks in the business that you have zero control over.

Tracy Mattson (13:26.51)
Yeah.

Tracy Mattson (13:37.274)
Yeah, because what, you're going to pay for packaging that has gone up 145 %? You can't. So you've got to pay attention. that's sometimes not as exciting, for sure. So that's why having a talk with you makes me remind me about what I really like to do and why it's still important. Yeah.

Kimberly Houston (13:51.963)
sure.

Kimberly Houston (13:57.191)
Yes, and I think the important thing are the cookies. That is the thing that makes your business unique, which leads, it's a great segue into my next question. So my next question for you was, you described your cookies as left of center. So can you walk us through your creative process on how you test or validate new flavor ideas?

Tracy Mattson (14:20.997)
Yeah, and it goes back to what we wanted to have an elevated experience, like cookies for every occasion, like a really great cookie for every occasion. So we look at, like, I like have two or three kind of flavor profiles. like one of, we have a local harvest fair, so one of the ones that won best to show was a tequila lime twist. So we took a cookie that we did the base with lime, so that we used the lime zest, the lime juice.

Kimberly Houston (14:29.307)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (14:46.661)
And like, where do we take that? That could just be a lime cookie. It's great. One of our signature cookie is the lemon that's just like that, but it's like fresh lemons, fresh juice, like really good. But this one, like, how can we kind of like zip it up? And when I was a pastry chef, we used to do these amuse bouches with cool flavor combinations as a palate cleanser. And I was like, tequila, lime, like, you know, how can we make a margarita? So we've got this amazing flavor of the lime cookie, that tangy, soft.

Kimberly Houston (14:49.724)
Thank

Kimberly Houston (15:06.044)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (15:15.174)
So the icing, then we look at adding tequila and lime juice and really finding that sweet, literally sweet spot where it's still tangy and you're not like, that's way too tequila. You're way too lime. So that's the icing. And then we do homemade vanilla salt. So we take gray salt and then we put tons of our beans that we've scraped out, the pods, excuse me, where we scrape the beans out. And then just let that infuse with the flavor and the smell. And so a little vanilla salt on top.

Kimberly Houston (15:22.32)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Houston (15:36.721)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (15:45.446)
So it was a really fun cookie and yeah, I like it. It is tasty. And people were like, wow, you get salty, you get sweet, you get tangy, and you get that all in a little cookie. I'm really proud of that one because that was us. That was our flavor profile that was taking something I had done in another context of dessert, but putting it into a cookie. And we try to do that sometimes. Like we've done like a maple, like a bourbon maple pecan cookie. So again, these flavor profiles are another

Kimberly Houston (15:53.264)
Yeah.

Kimberly Houston (16:03.408)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (16:14.575)
dessert elements that put it in a cookie. So yeah, so that's kind of where I look at it. okay, how do we add another element? Like our snickerdoodle has orange zest in it because I want it to, I like the whole salt citrus. Like it'll pop on you. So, and that's really helpful. Yeah.

Kimberly Houston (16:28.72)
Mm-hmm. I love that. Like, I'm fully on board with the elevated cookie now, and now feel like I need to come to your bakery and get some cookies.

Tracy Mattson (16:33.338)
Yeah.

Tracy Mattson (16:38.743)
yeah, we're gonna have to compare notes. And then the funny thing is, like talking about, again, ask people, ask people. We had a woman, Diane Peterson, who was a reporter for our local paper, and she just, I used her, she came in and did a story on us when we first started, and I would talk to her at the farmer's market. And one of the, another, again, a really piece of advice that made you go, Okay, let me think about that, was,

don't do a chocolate chip cookie. When you're, cause you're doing all these different flavors, do not do that on your first run because everyone has a memory or a flavor profile of what that should taste spot like. And they are going to judge you on that. So don't. And so like, I never, I seriously would never thought about that. Right. So that's why we're known for our lemon moon cookies, because that's what we put our effort bit on. And that's what we got in everyone's hand and got everyone to taste is because

Kimberly Houston (17:17.752)
Yes.

Kimberly Houston (17:27.898)
Maybe do. Yep.

Tracy Mattson (17:37.154)
this is something you will not taste from anybody else. And then that became what we were known for. like, again, these elevated really great flavor, not too sweet, doesn't taste like pledge lemon oil because it's actually got lemons in it. Yeah. So was like, so that's kind of how we grew. Now we do do a chocolate chip cookie and it's probably sells more than any of them. But, you know, but at least that's, we didn't get hit at the gate by that evaluation. So there's lots of people out there to talk to, like talk to them.

Kimberly Houston (17:39.792)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Houston (17:59.665)
Yes.

It is so smart.

Kimberly Houston (18:06.374)
Yes, I've never heard of that.

Tracy Mattson (18:09.107)
It was the weirdest thing and I was just like, really? And then you'd be at the farmer's market and don't you have chocolate chip? No. But we have this triple chocolate, try this one. So you would get like this, but you got them to try your cookie. Got to try our cookie, yeah.

Kimberly Houston (18:11.568)
that makes the difference.

Kimberly Houston (18:21.168)
did. That's gold. I totally think that that is genius. So as you were talking to other people like at the farmers market or people who are coming into your stores, how do you take customer feedback and use it as market research and then how do you decide whether or not you're going to actually change something or not?

Tracy Mattson (18:47.235)
It is so good because you can react to everything and then you would just be like, my hair would be out of my picture. Out of here. I take it and it's like one of those, feel like an attorney. I take it under advisement. So I hear you. I, okay, cool. I hear you. And if I start to get a couple of them, like, okay, we probably should, should think about this. And I have, I have responded and I have not. Like we had one where we have a cookie of the month club, which I think is one of the

Kimberly Houston (18:53.092)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Houston (18:59.557)
Okay.

Tracy Mattson (19:16.706)
the best things that we've done to help with cash flow because it's charged on a monthly basis and you know, we have a steady business, even one more dead. Anyway, we did our tequila lime cookie in that one. We got pushed back on alcohol on it. We disclaim it because we don't blow it, you know, we don't cook it off. like, I'm going to think about this one. Yeah, I'm going to think about this one because you know, we've had this cookie for years and no one's ever said anything, but you know, maybe for the cookie of the month club, maybe we do a notice in the month before.

ask people if they want it. I'm like, okay, that one's fair. I'll take it. I'm not going to change it, but maybe we change where it goes. things like that. Like, I mean, like, okay, that's a valid one. So and then then you get people that you're like, no, sorry. Like, why don't you do a bit cookie? Well, then go somewhere else because that's my business and it's my choice. So yeah. Yeah, but I think you have to hear it.

Kimberly Houston (19:54.726)
and

Kimberly Houston (20:05.528)
Right. I like that.

Tracy Mattson (20:11.146)
and then kind of it fits in that boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, where you're taking everyone's advice and then see if it plugs in or if hits something. And then, you know, just wait it out. See if it's a real issue or someone who is just being cranky and having a bad day.

Kimberly Houston (20:24.142)
Right or some people just won't like it regardless to whatever it is you do.

Tracy Mattson (20:28.252)
that hurts my heart, but it's yes, that's true. I got to tell you, even after 12 years, I still I still take it personally, even though we're not supposed to. But I do. feel like what the hell's your problem? Are you allowed to say that on this? But anyway, yeah. So you're like, OK, well, be nice about it. Like, come on. You don't have to like, you know, you you could be don't have to be rude. There's enough light like in.

Kimberly Houston (20:43.066)
Yes you are.

Tracy Mattson (20:56.279)
What I like, what is fun to tell my staff is like, we are in the business of spreading joy. You know, and not every place can do that. Like, I'll talk to my colleagues who have restaurants and like people that come in and they're mean. I'm like, that really hasn't happened here because people are already coming in and then our job is to make them excited. So when I'm training my front counter people, I'm like, this is really an important job because you're not just an order taker.

Kimberly Houston (21:03.42)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (21:23.959)
You can go anywhere and do that, but this is about sharing our passion, sharing what we do in like 40 and in 20 seconds, you know, in the intro, especially if they haven't come in and you want them leaving excited that they made this purchase like, my gosh, I'm so excited to try these cookies. And I think we've only had two instances like where people came in and they weren't one thought she ordered from us and she did it. And it was the end of the day. And there could have gone two ways. We could have been like, sorry, we're closed.

Kimberly Houston (21:24.102)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Houston (21:28.092)
Thank you.

Kimberly Houston (21:31.968)
Yes.

Tracy Mattson (21:53.108)
and you didn't order from us, whatever. But you got a sense like, you know what, think, give me 10 minutes, we can turn our ovens back on. What did you want? We can bake it right now. You've got a sense that this woman, she was having a bad day and she was frustrated and it was kinda coming out at me, but I was like, let me see if I can help. And so she stayed, we baked her cookies, and she's like, you know, I just realized I called somebody else.

Kimberly Houston (21:53.137)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Houston (22:07.439)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (22:18.786)
And I'm like, it's cool. I'm glad you came here and we got your cookies. And we found out she had just been to the doctor and had gotten some bad news. And she was just like, she was flailing and we could take that moment and make her day a little better. not there's not a lot of people that that's their job. And I love that part of my job. And that's why I keep trying to tell my people is like, you don't just take their money and give them a cookie. You are sharing experience. You're sharing a moment with somebody. And like that's.

Kimberly Houston (22:26.394)
Yes.

Kimberly Houston (22:33.093)
Yes.

Tracy Mattson (22:48.159)
what we're in the business selling. Not just a cookie, but an experience.

Kimberly Houston (22:54.372)
Absolutely, I love it and I hope everybody took a note of that because I'm the Chase Joy Girl. So it's difficult for me to be like, we're having a bad day, okay. So let's find the joy in the moment.

Tracy Mattson (23:00.188)
I like that.

Tracy Mattson (23:07.606)
You could, because you could have been easy, just been like, sorry, we're closed. You know, I can't help you. sometimes, you know, like we're, think, in the business of pleasing people, right? Whether for food or whatever. And you just get a sense of like, wow, I can do this.

Kimberly Houston (23:25.434)
Yes, and you can. Okay, so keeping with this and talking about customers and how you've built much community, what is your grand opening or early customer engagement?

Tracy Mattson (23:39.745)
Like when we opened we opened our counter. It was again a long long drawn-out process we had fabulous Architects and the fabulous builders that again was just we couldn't ask for a better experience So then we and a landlord our landlord's been fabulous and helping and helping me grow I couldn't have done it without her so it does take a village So we have this great grand opening

Kimberly Houston (23:41.35)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (24:07.034)
And in the backdrop was the fires of like 2000, whatever. We've had fires here. So yeah, it was smoky. We couldn't be outside. But we had people come and we had food. But it goes back to your 50 year person who's in business 50 years who I totally want to meet that person because that's inspiring. We're like, OK, just come inside. And then we were closed for like a week because of the fires. That probably wasn't a great answer to motivate anyone. But it learns about resilience and you still like we're here. We're still here.

Kimberly Houston (24:21.222)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Houston (24:26.777)
Yeah.

Tracy Mattson (24:36.713)
And people came and they came and just don't look to the north where it's kind of orangey glow. My parents came in from taxes and I was like, my gosh, this is so stressful. But yeah, that was, I don't know what that lesson is. That's a lesson of just roll with it. We'd already rented everything, we had food. You're like, we're going with this.

Kimberly Houston (24:43.312)
Happy.

Kimberly Houston (24:55.228)
It moves.

Kimberly Houston (24:58.682)
Yes, when you went from farmers market to brick and mortar, like how long did that take you?

Tracy Mattson (25:10.685)
I don't remember. I think like my dog is like five years old for like eight years. I have no sense of time anymore. Several years. I rented a kitchen and did a commercial kitchen and then a landlord. Again, talk to people, talk to people, talk to people. My landlord rode horses and that's my side hustle, my true like, gives me joy. And she had a space here.

Kimberly Houston (25:28.048)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (25:36.8)
and where I'm at now and I looked and I'm like, it's so small. It was like 500 square feet, was tiny. And then I looked at a place that was like 3,000 square feet and then again it goes back to knowing your business and knowing numbers and I was like, oh wait that 500 square feet looks great. That looks really good. It was in the back, it had no foot traffic. We just used it as production kitchen because I'm like, let's just start with small.

Kimberly Houston (25:42.47)
Uh-huh.

Tracy Mattson (26:05.761)
start this mall. And then the space in front of us came open three times. And on the third time, we're like, OK, I'm comfortable. And you become the nice part of starting in a commercial kitchen, which you're paying by the hour, you learn to be really efficient. So we had to use the same principles when we had our small production kitchen, which we'd bake, clear everything, pack, and then went out an hour ago. So you learn to be very efficient. So when we expanded, then we could just eat.

Kimberly Houston (26:14.46)
You

Tracy Mattson (26:32.928)
we could really grow on that because wow, now we could bake and pack. What a novel idea. yeah, it was a couple years, definitely a couple years in a commercial kitchen. Again, I think on my path, I just had really great people. You know, it was a city-owned community center that had a kitchen. And so we rented and like, I think we were one of the first ones. So it was cool because now it's a fabulous incubator. So many other people now, they kind of

Kimberly Houston (26:37.692)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (27:02.9)
you know, come in after. And they were so great to work with, you know, and they would work with me. They would help me if I needed like to come in at a different time. They, you know, you just I think that just being kind and trying to be respectful and, know, it helps a lot. And then knowing like how much you can push into like an hour. So, you know, you can push the boundaries. But, yeah, so we went from commercial kitchen and then so you would pack, go to an event, you know, leave all of it in your car or come back.

Kimberly Houston (27:10.586)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Houston (27:20.56)
Yeah.

Tracy Mattson (27:31.551)
to production kitchen that was very tiny but was mine. It was really nice. I remember coming in and I was scrubbing the floor with a toothbrush. You could only do that because it 500 square feet. But it was mine and I was really proud of it. you know, I turned this little thing into like our little jewel box and then eventually grew. So.

Kimberly Houston (27:43.974)
Yes.

Kimberly Houston (27:49.661)
I love that. I'm reading a book right now that is called Work is Fun. this is by the guy who owns King of Pops where he started a Popsicle stand. And the two stories sound so similar where he's talking about how quickly they had to package all their Popsicles and then they'd immediately go out and sell them.

Tracy Mattson (28:07.324)
On the way.

Tracy Mattson (28:15.527)
shoot.

Kimberly Houston (28:17.624)
And like, he talks about the back and forth with the incubator kitchen and then how they got their own kitchen. And now they're just kind of, they're very large. They started in Atlanta, they're huge now. And as you were talking, I was like, no, that sounds like the story that I'm reading right now. It's so good. And he even talks to founders in the understanding that even though you start lean, you start small. As you're growing,

Tracy Mattson (28:26.143)
that's cool.

Tracy Mattson (28:32.159)
I want to check out his book

Kimberly Houston (28:44.954)
do not lose the passion you had when you started Lean. Like even though you didn't have a whole lot of, it was still fun. Like it was the passion that was driving you. And so he talks about how do you implement that passion throughout, even as you grow larger. And it's great for founders to listen to, but then also here's what you tell your staff. so yeah, so he talks about, yeah, like how do you get everybody to buy into this like,

Tracy Mattson (29:08.061)
Exactly. It has to translate.

Kimberly Houston (29:14.682)
big imaginative fun dream. It's got great stories in it. Totally, totally recommend it. That's not normal on the podcast, but that stood out. So clearly.

Tracy Mattson (29:17.631)
That's cool.

Tracy Mattson (29:24.348)
I'm going to definitely check out that. Like we did, like when you're growing, like I got a business coach because you're like, that's what I should do at that time. And it helped in some regard, but you know, we were, God, it was post COVID supply change issues, whatever, whatever problem we had at the time. And she's like, well, you need to change like your butter's the most expensive thing. You should change that. like, well, then I should close because what distinguishes me is our, our commitment to quality agreements and to our community.

If I'm just gonna go and get like, know, name brand, like, what, then you could just go to Safeway. And like, there's no difference. And that's just a death by a thousand cuts. And really didn't understand, I mean, granted, you still have to pay your bills. And we were kind of in a situation where that was, you know, so, but that's not where I'm gonna cut. I'm not gonna cut my ingredients. You know, we work with the local.

Kimberly Houston (30:12.934)
Yes. Yes.

Tracy Mattson (30:18.222)
Creamery, which is you know is getting bigger, but like you know I know the CEO we've been in same organizations And you know that is important to me. I like that. I like that's part of our story. Is it more expensive? heck yeah, it really is But it also it tastes better like when I first started going back to talking about Well how we started is I did a blind test on a snickerdiddle cookie because that's a butter cookie And I did like a couple local ones. I did what we learned at pastry school

Kimberly Houston (30:26.862)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Houston (30:32.602)
Yes.

Kimberly Houston (30:42.94)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (30:47.645)
and blind tasted them. And I was like, damn, that tastes good. Yeah. You could tell it's a higher butter fat, you know. And it's like, so that's going to be just part of our story is using that butter. So, and so we keep paying for it and, you know, just make it work. But then they support us, you know, we do their holiday gifts or they do a shout out. So that's really about this ecosystem about being a hyper local that, you know, we all kind of help you, you know, we're all part of it together.

Kimberly Houston (30:55.355)
Yeah.

Kimberly Houston (31:16.592)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (31:17.373)
for sure.

Kimberly Houston (31:19.196)
I love it. I love it. Okay, so we're going to get into a little bit of your past. So you've started your world renowned kitchens. What's one business or leadership lesson from those experiences that still shows up in your bakery today?

Tracy Mattson (31:24.934)
Okay.

Tracy Mattson (31:33.95)
I did, I learned what I learned, saging like that was the whole word, like how do you even say it right? Working in restaurants and it is like, it is the best like day or a week that you could ever spend and you will learn more than you will ever do in a whole year of pastry school. So I recommend it. Sometimes people get weird about insurance, but I did Vegas with

Kimberly Houston (31:40.593)
Yes.

Tracy Mattson (32:03.259)
Robuchon with Chef Kamal for chocolates, when I left my pastry chef position, I couldn't do chocolates really well. And I'm like, damn it, I'm going to learn. I'm going to learn how to do this. so, again, it goes back to that kindness showed me how the other chocolates were amazing and just brought me in. And then the other experience was Libertadan in New York with Michael Lascones, who now teaches.

Kimberly Houston (32:20.028)
Thank you.

Tracy Mattson (32:29.246)
And I learned there to be kind. He was so nice to his staff and kind, and they were kind to each other. And less is more. He was an architect by training. so building a plated dessert, you don't need to hide. He taught me the whole two or three things. No, don't put like 10 things because your palate's not going to be able to figure that out. So two or three things.

Kimberly Houston (32:32.316)
Hmm.

Kimberly Houston (32:39.994)
Okay.

Kimberly Houston (32:49.616)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (32:58.235)
That was really cool. think he finally was like, okay, are you done? I'm like, no, I'm just going to stay here forever. So I did. I was like, okay, fine. I'll go. And that was a really cool kitchen because at the time it felt like a lot of people in that level of cooking were on second careers and it brought a different vibe to it. know, people, you it was quiet, you know, there's no screaming. I've been in that situation too.

Kimberly Houston (33:07.728)
Yeah.

Tracy Mattson (33:25.597)
And people just came there to get their job done. I'm sure they're stressed and that maybe caught it on a good day, but they just were there to get it done. you know, it was just a really, really awesome place to see how a kitchen works. And I think that's why they're a three-star Michelin, because they got that part down. People get in, they do their job, and, you know, they're all pulling together rather than competing or sabotaging. That's a whole other story for another podcast. But anyway.

Kimberly Houston (33:25.637)
anything.

Kimberly Houston (33:43.632)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (33:53.361)
Yeah, so that was really cool and I've been trying to think some others but those two were just like those people stuck with me, have stuck with me to remember just even when you're having a bad day and you like get sharp you're like, you know, you still try to back it up and remember. So, yeah.

Kimberly Houston (34:09.21)
Yeah, I love that. I love it so much. my goodness. Okay. So I have two more questions for you. So the next one is, this is kind of future planning, right? So for a future you, are you thinking about wholesale, additional locations, any new channels? What's the part of your next wave of?

Tracy Mattson (34:31.108)
I like I'm a crossroads there because a couple years ago we were growing, I had a bigger staff, we were doing private label, we were doing wholesale and I felt like a hamster wheel. Like we were making more money, we were spending more and I didn't see it, I didn't see the exponential, I didn't see the world of pop, I didn't see how it was gonna change for us. It was kind of sad.

on summer guard where you realize like, we're going to have all these outlets. You know, we could be the next whatever. And I didn't think I had that experience. And I think that's why sometimes, you know, maybe, you know, when you bring people on, it could take you to that level. But I didn't. So I kind of came to terms with being OK with being local, regional. Like maybe we won't. Hey, if you're listening and you want to like franchise, that's fine or, you know, help us grow. But I was OK with my level of experience and where I'm at in my life. And

with my kid of being okay to be where we're at. Okay, we'll be maybe one place. Maybe we won't have multiple outlets. And I won't be that multi-million dollar with a Jaguar in a pool. We all have our dreams. Not happening. So my pool isn't inflatable right now. So yeah, it works. But what can I do to still have a level of success? And so it's really important to us to be part of our community like we talk about from our gradients.

Kimberly Houston (35:41.115)
Yes.

Tracy Mattson (35:56.665)
We've then become open to a high school to have kids come in and be a mentor. We have a program that we work with the Department of Rehabilitation where you have kids with special needs come in and get job training and really get like grown-up experiences. And to me, that brings me a lot of joy. And it's like the hardest and the most rewarding. It's like the most...

Kimberly Houston (36:09.948)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Houston (36:19.099)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (36:23.8)
soul crushing and the most rewarding experience, sometimes on the same day, because you get kids come in that have a lot, like with the interns, a lot of issues or something, and then we try to cut through it and give them a safe spot and give them confidence and give them the resources to get them to that next level in growing for the kids. And then for the kids with special needs, we're like, you know, we all have superpowers and we all have challenges. Let's work, where are your superpowers? You know, like we can all like think I can't do it because of X, Y, and Z.

Kimberly Houston (36:36.838)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (36:52.719)
but like what can you do and let's really work on that. And we've had a kid for a couple years where he came in one day a week, didn't want to make eye contact and was really nervous. He comes in now, he's up to three shifts, comes in, is like so happy, I wish everyone would be like that, looks at his list and gets to work. And I'm like, you know what, we did that. We gave that kid that opportunity to feel good about himself, to give him skills, to feel like,

Kimberly Houston (37:13.723)
Yes.

Tracy Mattson (37:22.853)
He has options, you know, and that makes me proud. Does it pay the bills? Pay my kids' college tuition? You know, I hope it all comes out.

Kimberly Houston (37:37.436)
Well, stop. Can you hear me?

Tracy Mattson (37:44.292)
I have it on do not disturb, it didn't work. You can hear me again? So that's where I think our growth is in where we grow. are definitely, you know, in COVID, we kind of cut, like really, COVID was good. It helped you really strip down what's important, what you do good at. were doing a house sale account where we were going twice a week. It was like a packaged good. We don't need to do that. We're gonna go once a week.

Kimberly Houston (37:46.364)
I think.

Tracy Mattson (38:09.07)
So it helped me really look at what we're doing. If we had an account that was like 20 minutes away that was really small dollar, yeah, we're not gonna do that. Love being there, we'll come for lunch, but yeah, we're not gonna do that. So I feel like we've rode that as long as we should. you know, we are, you know, I've just done a sales sheet and we're looking at ways to go back out and wholesale and find some new opportunities. we make dog biscuits because

Kimberly Houston (38:26.32)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Mattson (38:37.41)
We kept having these people say my dog ate my red box, you know, and it was that was when we were listened. It happened a lot. So like, OK, we hear this need where our customers dogs are eating our cookies and the box is not great. So we used we use a lot of egg whites. So we have all these egg yolks. So we're using that in a pumpkin and parsley dog treat. So now we have dog treats. So like, wait, we're close to the coast and all these people come up with their dogs. Let's go find some opportunities, you know.

Kimberly Houston (39:07.089)
Yes.

Tracy Mattson (39:07.16)
So I've kind of finally, I feel like I'm digging out of the whatever we just had for the last five years of like, okay, I think it's safe now, maybe that we can expand a little bit. So I held it close, probably too long, of just trying to make sure we survived. So I think we're trying to come out of that survival mode and like, okay, let's grow again.

Kimberly Houston (39:12.891)
Mm-hmm.

Kimberly Houston (39:28.25)
Yes, be creative. I love it. Okay, so one of the questions I'm super excited to ask you about, I don't know that I've asked this question on the podcast yet, is because you went from pastry chef into entrepreneurship. I did the same thing, but I haven't had this conversation with anyone. So my question is, what would you tell someone who is still on the pastry chef side of the world?

and they're thinking about leaping into entrepreneurship. What advice would you give them and what do you wish you had known?

Tracy Mattson (40:05.187)
I don't even know if I know that one yet still. But usually when I people that come in that are interested, like wanting to be a paid, you know, having their own business, I'm like, go work for somebody else. Go learn from their mistakes. Do not learn on your own, right? Find out what you want to do. Like experiences are go both ways. Like I'm never going to do that or I want to do that. But learn on someone else's dime. This is really hard.

Yeah, I wish I would have paid attention to the books and the numbers better. I have a sense of it. I have a sense of how much that costs. But then when you start to really get down to it, you're like, oh, yeah, that adds up. So yeah, be good at math. If everyone thinks like, oh, I'm big. I don't need to know math, yeah, you do. You do. You need to know fractions. You need to know multiplications. Definitely work on your 12s, your scales. So yeah.

Kimberly Houston (40:55.58)
Yeah, we did.

Kimberly Houston (41:02.619)
Yes.

Tracy Mattson (41:02.987)
You know what six dozen is, you know? Anyway, so yeah, but also I think there are a lot of people will tell you no, or like that's a bad idea. That's so easy advice to give to people, right? Like, that's a bad idea. So hear it, but listen to your heart and like do the work. my God, do the work, do a business plan. Another someone gave me a great advice is plan for the worst. Plan for the worst.

Kimberly Houston (41:07.739)
Yes.

Tracy Mattson (41:32.162)
another woman to, I guess we're all on the same thing, know, a woman chef of like, and I'm sure it served her well too, but plan for the worst so you're never too far over your skis, that you can always kind of get back and you don't lose your business. So, but yeah, that would be it. And then do it. Like, you know, life is short. So if you think you can make it work and you can figure out the math and the money, you know, and then do it.

Tracy Mattson (42:01.471)
Yeah. Now we need to have one with you because I want to hear how you started.

Kimberly Houston (42:06.19)
Well, then I can tell you offline and for everyone listening you guys will just have to like go read about me later but then I can definitely share with you. But for this podcast this is all about you so we're not gonna talk about me but I'll tell you offline. Thank you so so much Tracy for taking this time to talk with us to talk to our audience. I know this will be exciting particularly because we talked very specifically about entrepreneurship and taking that leap.

Tracy Mattson (42:18.644)
Well, okay.

Okay.

Kimberly Houston (42:33.648)
from pastry over into entrepreneurship. I spent the entire summer at conferences speaking to people. That was something that kept coming up, was how do you go from restaurants or fine dining into entrepreneurship? So I was super excited to be able to ask you that question today now that I'm off the road. So thank you so much for doing that. I've loved having you as a guest on The Perfect Rise.

Tracy Mattson (42:39.937)
cool.

Tracy Mattson (42:43.841)
Yeah.

Tracy Mattson (42:51.423)
cool.

Tracy Mattson (42:58.774)
this is so much fun. Thank you, Kimberly.